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Subject: SBS Dateline: The Timor Gap (transcript)
http://www.sbs.com.au/dateline/
April 21, 2004
The Timor Gap
Now to East Timor, where for the last three days, teams from there and
Australia have been in bitter negotiations over where our sea boundaries
lie and who will control the oil and gas royalties within them, worth an
estimated $30 billion. This has been an ongoing issue between the two
countries, which to date has been handled reasonably amicably. But now
there seems to have been a radical change of mood with anti-Australian
sentiment rising by the day. Mark Davis spent the last few days in the
capital, Dili, amongst the protesters, politicians and negotiators
battling over the spoils.
REPORTER: MARK DAVIS
It's crunch time for East Timor, foreign aid is rapidly drying up and
next month the UN will finally withdraw its security forces. President
Xanana Gusmao knows better than most the crisis East Timor will soon be
facing. For Gusmao this school in the hills above Dili is just one corner
of the looming problem. There'll be barely enough to pay the teachers and
virtually nothing to fix the still ruined classrooms.
XANANA GUSMAO, EAST TIMOR PRESIDENT (Translation): Today we are still
begging. They give us money with a smile and say "Take it", We
have no money.
There's a new bitterness here. The dream that East Timor's natural
resources would rescue the countries as the aid disappeared is rapidly
fading.
XANANA GUSMAO (Translation): You might have heard that we have oil,
kerosene and gas in our sea that people want to steal. They are the
resources that can help us to fix everything.
While various deals have been signed with Australia regarding the
oilfields that lie between the two countries, Xanana has publicly barely
uttered a critical word. Until very recently his Prime Minister has
presented those deals to the public as not ideal, but at least reasonable.
Xanana's venom on this day, a couple of weeks ago, was a bolt out of the
blue.
XANANA GUSMAO (Translation): Australia is a rich country. A rich
country which recognised our past integration. After that, Ali Alatas and
Gareth Evans flew over East Timor drinking champagne and signing the
agreement to steal our oil.
PROTESTER (Translation): You don't understand what I'm saying. This
petrol zone is mine and that is yours. Understand?
For many of the activists here the Australians have always been
plotting to steal East Timor's oil. The dramatic difference now is that
their President and Prime Minister are joining in the chorus.
PROTESTER: Australia is cheating.
The Timor Sea Treaty signed between Australia and the new East Timorees
Government in 1992 was condemned at the time by many of the organisers
here. The treaty was seen as selling out East Timor's full maritime
boundaries for a short-sighted gain. Although not said today, those deals
were negotiated by Prime Minister Mari Alkatiri.
MARK DAVIS: Was that in retrospect a mistake?
MARI ALKATIRI, EAST TIMOR PRIME MINISTER: Yeah, because this is
temporary agreement. That's why we can sign it before the maritime
boundaries. If this only was a real show of goodwill and good faith from
our side.
MARK DAVIS: Do you believe that good faith has not been returned, was
to your expectation that Australia would have progressed on these other
fronts.
MARI ALKATIRI: In the beginning it was various starting points in the
negotiations. We knew we had one, two, three years to go. I still believe
that Australia will realise that there's no way than to submit to the rule
of law.
Sorting out a maritime boundary between the two nations was never going
to be easy or fast. In 1972 Australia settled on a sea border with
Indonesia. Portugal, which then controlled East Timor was not a party and
hence the so-called Timor gap in the border. After the Indonesian
invasion, Australia and Indonesia agreed, not on formal borders, but on a
joint exploitation zone splitting profits 50/50. After independence it was
essentially this zone that Australia and East Timor negotiated over. It
was agreed that 90% of oil profits would go to East Timor, still without
defining any maritime border over an area much less than what East Timor
claims is its rightful territory. Australia retained it's oil field west
of the joint development zone and most of its Sunrise field to the east,
80% of it. Mario Carrascalou was a senior opposition figure who opposed
East Timor signing the treaty.
MARIO CARRASCALOU: Demonsrate against the government, second against
the parliament and then in the third place against Australia.
MARK DAVIS: The Government in East Timor, demonstrate against this
government?
MARIO CARRASCALOU: Yes.
MARK DAVIS: Because why, because it was their deal.
MARIO CARRASCALAO: Because they are the one that brought - signed the
agreement and brought this through the parliament, and the parliament
ratified it. And now, why should we blame Australia?
MARK DAVIS: So in your opinion the issue of the maritime boundary
should have been settled before there was any discussion about sharing the
oil resources.
MARIO CARRASCALOU: No doubt about that and I also am aware that it was
not so difficult but in order to have a good relationship with any other
country here in the region, you have to take and give. Everybody had to
realise that, that you cannot just force the position to be accepted by
other sides. I believe we can reach a better agreement, a fair agreement
to both sides.
Whether it was a good deal or a bad deal it was certainly Mari
Alkatiri's deal, and for the Australian negotiators at this week's
maritime boundary talks, it's a deal that the Prime Minister is now trying
to get out of. The dollars have started to flow to East Timor from the
joint development area. But, a second agreement covering Australia's
principle area of interest, Greater Sunrise, signed by Alkatiri last year
has not been presented to his parliament for ratification. A frustrating
blockage for Australia, which has already begun negotiating with companies
to develop the field.
MARK DAVIS: Is this why the relationship has deteriorated quite
recently because Australia is issuing licences for Greater Sunrise.
MARI ALKATIRI: I think the situation is only between the Prime
Minister, Mari Alkatiri and the Government of Australia, not between the
two people.
MARK DAVIS: I'm sure it's not. Both people have interest in what the
boundaries are, both people's have interest in the proceeds of these
fields. At that meeting, November 2002, you - Mr Downer did put very
firmly that as far as he was concerned there was an agreement on Greater
Sunrise. You appeared to agree with that, although you were firm on
maritime borders, you didn't want to question the 80/20 split on Greater
Sunrise, pending to Maritime boundary discussions.
But it's unlikely there'll be any agreements coming out of this week's
maritime boundary discussions. At Alkatiri's side is Peter Galbraith his
constant advisor through four years of oil and border negotiations. Their
strategy has been a high-risk one, do the best deal possibly on the joint
development area and leave the bigger fight over borders and rich
oilfields until later in an international court if necessary.
MARK DAVIS: Is that part of the strategy to get enough assets to play a
tougher hand later?
PETER GALBRAITH: Absolutely. The idea was to pocket as much of the
revenues as possible and there are to leave East Timor in a position where
it had a stronger hand for future negotiations about areas outside the
JPDA, Buffalo, Corallina and Laminaria on the west, and Sunrise on the
east.
Galbraith's and Alkatiri's strategy of dealing with broader boundaries
later took a turn for the worse when Australia withdrew itself from the
jurisdiction of the International court of justice.
PETER GALBRAITH: The fact is you never withdraw from the jurisdiction
of the court unless you think your case is weak.
MARK DAVIS: Would you ever anticipate that Australia would withdraw
from the subsection International Court of Justice jurisdiction.
PETER GALBRAITH: The Australians from time to time in the negotiations
under the Timor Sea Treaty, said that they might do so, frankly I didn't
believe it because I had an imagine of Australia as one of those countries
like the Scandinavian countries that was very law-abiding, believing in
the United Nations a kind of good Government country in the world and I
thought what they did was completely out of character.
Relationships here have soured dramatically in recent months and will
probably only get worse today as Alkatiri announces that East Timor will
legally challenge any company that deals with Australia in the Greater
Sunrise field.
MARK DAVIS: Any response? Very strong opening sir, do you imagine
there's much room for discussion after that speech.
MARI ALKATIRI: The room is too big.
MARK DAVIS: Too big? Yeah. There was a stunned silence, do you imagine
there will be much discussion now?
MARI ALKATIRI: It's better to be transparent, to be clear, to be
straight forward. This is the only way to convince the other side that we
are here to negotiate, but in good faith.
MARK DAVIS: Is this a new stage in the discussions to be so frank, so
forward.
MARI ALKATIRI: This is my style.
MARK DAVIS: Now that Australia has withdrawn from the International
Court of Justice, what strategy do you have, what leverage do you have to
persuade Australia to make any changes whatsoever to the agreement.
MARI ALKATIRI: Of course as leading figure in all this negotiation from
East Timor's side I have my strategy. But, unfortunately I cannot disclose
it.
Politics in East Timor is almost a one-party affair. Alkatiri's group
enjoy an overwhelming majority and opposition voices can be lonely ones.
POLITICIAN, (Translation): Now everyone is calling Australia a thief.
Australians are stealing oil, they're thieves, but we're not.
The debate on the maritime boundaries and the previous treaties that
have been signed has become even more complicated by a bribery scandal
that broke in March. In a statement of claim filed in the US, Oceanic
Explorations which believes it holds an old title to the Timor Sea claims
that Alkatiri received $2.5 million from ConocoPhillips to secure leases
in the joint development area agreed to by East Timor and Australia.
ConocoPhillips and Alkatiri both regard these allegations as baseless.
MARK DAVIS: These negotiations are now entering the most important
stage for you being the maritime boundaries that are somewhat overshadowed
by another controversy, which is another oil company has accused you of
accepting bribes or you have been influenced to sign these papers.
MARI ALKATIRI: I already make clear my position, I denied everything
and I'm not in a position to challenge them to come with facts.
Unfortunately, I was not presented or defended in court. Very unfortunate.
I would prefer them to accuse me and put me in a place to defend it to.
It's important that I - they insist that it was made intentionally. Their
lawyer made it intentionally and was based on an America laws. I can't do
too much to attack them. I've been watching them through my lawyers,
trying to get some opportunity to react. Now I challenge them publicly to
come with facts and try to accuse me in the court or everywhere.
The Oceanic claim is not convincing in itself but it does provide some
detail. It gives the names of two bank branches in Darwin and bank account
numbers through which they claim the money was paid.
MARK DAVIS: It's a terrible slander if it's not true. There is a
reasonable amount of information, bank accounts, payment details, dates.
MARI ALKATIRI: You have a bank account, you pay for your key to the
school with cheques, or to a supermarket and you use cheques to pay
something. Of course the bank account is open. The numbers remain open.
But, those amounts are for money that were really talking about, is
completely false. Please come with these facts. I know quite well how much
money I had, maximum, in this bank account. I never had more than a few
thousand, very few thousand.
Mario Carrascalou's son works for Petrotimor a subsidiary of Oceanic,
but says there's no family interest in either company. He knows nothing of
the charges but believes the allegations have affected the Government's
recent behaviour.
MARK DAVIS: When did this talk about Australia being a thief and
stealing, when did this start.
MARIO CARRASCALOU: It is just, perhaps, one month ago, we start to see
in the papers a statement made by Dr Mari Alkatiri saying that, they say
that the Australian Government, always mention the Australian Government
because Alkatiri try to make a difference between the Australian
Government and people, they used it to make a statement. This is about a
month ago. It's quite recent. Almost two years, they considered us the
opposition, as the one who tried to sabotage everything in East Timor, by
voting against this also. The country needs money.
MARK DAVIS: Why is it starting now, why is this quite aggressive talk
about Australia starting now. Has anything changed?
MARIO CARRASCALOU: I do not know what really happened, but if you -
even because the allegations, some bribes, it was after that. This
demonstration perhaps is a way, also to get the attention of the people
from something. Something must be behind that. Everybody knows that the
credibility of this Government, it's losing its credibility. Last meeting
with the country in East Timor there was some problem, we realise that, so
perhaps they wanted to show that they are carrying, taking care of the
future of our people. Perhaps this is to create a new face, new image, who
knows.
MARK DAVIS: Or a new enemy.
The Oceanic claim also makes an explosive accusation about the
Australian embassy in East Timor, they claim that payments to many
Timorese politicians were made inside the Australian embassy in Dili to
relinquish their oil rights. The Australian Department of Foreign Affairs
categorically denies the claim. The allegation concerning the Australian
embassy did not include Alkatiri at all but it did include other
parliamentary members.
MARK DAVIS: One of the accusations in those court documents is that the
Australian embassy was involved in handing over...
MARI ALKATIRI: Do you believe?
MARK DAVIS: It's not for me. It sounds credible there's individual
names. It's true it is a scandal of massive proportions it involves the
Australian Government, embassy, politicians in East Timor...
MARI ALKATIRI: All of it is rubbish.
MARK DAVIS: It would negate all negotiations and agreements that had
gone on. Have you asked the Australian Government for their response to
those allegations, have you asked them for any information regarding those
claims?
MARI ALKATIRI: No, not at all because I didn't believe. Because if they
were really able to say that I received bribes, an amount of $2.5
million...
MARK DAVIS: Leaving that on the side.
MARI ALKATIRI: The same line, I know it's not true it's false. It's
frivolous. Why could I believe other kind of allegations?
Oil, like it seems to everywhere, is building clouds of suspicion and
distrust. With billions of dollars at stake, these now strains between
Australia and East Timor aren't likely to be getting any better any time
soon.
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