Subject: E Timor's Gusmao To Ask Albright To Stop Us
Military Aid To Indonesia
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 08:44:30 -0500
Transcript
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Contact: Maria Carrion, (212)209-2811 Allan Nairn, (212)662-3649
GUSMAO TO ASK ALBRIGHT TO STOP US MILITARY AID TO INDONESIA Also asks US to pressure
Indonesia to withdraw military intelligence from East Timor
New York, March 3, 1999 - On the eve of his meeting with US Secretary of State
Madeleine Albright, jailed East Timorese rebel Xanana Gusmao said the United States should
cut off all training, weapons and ammunition sales to Indonesia, and called on Washington
to pressure the Indonesian government to withdraw its military intelligence service from
East Timor, which he blames for the establishment of paramilitary groups in the occupied
territory.
In his first US radio interview since his 1992 arrest, given to Pacifica Radio's
Democracy Now! from Jakarta, Gusmao said that US military training and weapons sales to
the Indonesian military is "preparing Indonesian killers to go to East Timor and kill
East Timorese people." He added that US military education and weapons had played a
part in the torture, killing and jailing of the Timorese population during the brutal
23-year Indonesian occupation of East Timor.
Rep. Chris Smith (R-NJ) and Rep. Lane Evans (D-Ill) are introducing a bill in Congress
this week that would cut off all US military training to Indonesia.
Asked if he believed that Indonesia would deliver on its promise to grant independence
to East Timor if the Timorese rejected the option of becoming an autonomous region of
Indonesia, Gusmao said that "President Habibie has to be aware that he has made a
commitment to the international community," and so he was "not worried"
that Indonesia would withdraw its promise to the Timorese.
Gusmao also told Pacifica Radio that if the east Timorese population is given the
choice between autonomy and independence, "I am sure that they will choose
independence." He added that he is in favor of forming a democratically-elected
consultative assembly, which he said would "decide if east Timor accepts or rejects
the question of autonomy" versus independence.
Gusmao said that the withdrawal of the Indonesian military and the disarmament of
FALINTIL, the Timorese guerrilla group that he heads "must be enforced by a United
Nations police force," which would then remain in East Timor for another six months
to help "consolidate mutual confidence between the East Timorese." He said that
the UN police force would assist in forming a new Timorese police force, composed of
former guerrilla independence combatants, as well as Timorese who worked for the
Indonesian military.
The Timorese rebel leader also reiterated charges that the Indonesian military
intelligence is responsible for recent violence in East Timor, as well as the creation of
paramilitary units in the territory. He said that the military intelligence service
"gives weapons to the population" to promote instability and to "give the
appearance that there would be a civil war" if east Timor were given independence.
Summing up 23 years of brutal military repression by Indonesia, which has killed an
estimated one-third of East Timor's population, Gusmao said that Indonesia's military had
attacked the population and conducted massacres because they "wrongly thought they
could crush the spirit of the East Timorese." Instead, he said, "the military
occupation has united the East Timorese, consolidated the nationalist spirit and created
stronger patriotism."
The interview is available on the web at http://www.pacifica.org/programs/democracy_now/archives/d990303.html#2
Preliminary transcript of an Interview with
Xanana Gusmao Pacifica Radio's Democracy Now, March 3, 1999
Prepared by the East Timor Action Network/U.S.
Allan Nairn: Can you tell us who has created these militia groups,
these paramilitaries that are now attacking civilians in East Timor?
Xanana Gusmao: We have concluded that it is [Indonesian] military
intelligence. They organized the civilians and they gave them weapons to
intimidate the population in order to create an appearance in East Timor
that the situation is uncontrollable to show the international community
that there would be some threat of civil war. In my opinion, it is the
military intelligence service (SGI). It is part of a process that wants to
create a situation of instability in East Timor and force Indonesian
society, the international community to accept that if there is a
referendum or an independence choice, there would be civil war.
Referendum AN: If the people of East Timor had a free choice in a
referendum do you believe they would choose independence?
XG: I don't believe, I am sure. Only a few people who have received
privileges during these 23 years [of Indonesian occupation] would want
integration because they do so well during this time, or because they fear
reprisals from [pro-]independence people. I have already assured them that
nothing will happen to them if East Timor came to independent. They know a
great majority of our people are asking for immediate independence. We
have to accept a period under the United Nations to prepare ourselves.
AN: This January, Habibie said if people of East Timor reject autonomy,
Indonesia would consider granting independence to East Timor. Do you
believe that the Indonesian government is truly ready to grant
independence?
XG: I don't see the question from this angle. I see this from another
angle. President Habibie has to be aware that he has a commitment to the
international community, not to the East Timorese community. I don't worry
about his sincerity of the Indonesian government. The Indonesian
government has a commitment to the international community. If East Timor
people reject autonomy, we will have to be granted independence.
Meeting the Secretary of State AG: What do you plan to say to Madeleine
Albright on Friday? XG: It is difficult question to answer, but I can say
to you I will explain the real situation in the territory. I will explain
the role of a 3rd party in the process and I will explain how we see the
consultation process I will tell her about the need for a UN police force.
UN Police Force AN: Will you be calling for UN troops to come into East
Timor or just unarmed UN personnel?
XG: United Nations police force, police presence.
AN: And why do you think that's necessary?
XG: We, Falintil, are ready to be disarmed, and we have asked for the
disarmament of everyone, all parties: even the East Timorese in ABRI and
the paramilitary groups who have fought against us, while ABRI has be
withdrawn from East Timor
AN: And you would call for ABRI to be withdrawn from East Timor and a
UN force to come into East Timor?
XG: Yes, there will be no peaceful consultation process if all parties
are not disarmed. It is the best way to assure everybody that there could
not be any chance, any possibility, of civil war.... ABRI has to be
withdrawn from East Timor to permit a favorable atmosphere for the
consultation process.
AN: How long will you expect the UN to stay in East Timor?
XG: During the consultation process, and I maybe for six months more,
because we have to consolidate the reconciliation process. We have to show
to each other that we are sincere in our commitments in the reconciliation
before the consultation process. We have to consolidate mutual confidence
between East Timorese, and I feel that six months would be enough for the
UN police force to be there.
AN: After the six months and the UN police force leaves, what would
happen then?
XG: After the disarmament process, the UN police force could select and
instruct candidates from FALINTIL and East Timorese in ABRI and policemen
formed by Indonesian government and create police corps of East Timorese
[for] all territory. I think that if we get a peaceful process in the
consultation period, we would get also a peaceful atmosphere [after] the
consultation process. After three, six months we can work together to
avoid any violence and any attempts at conflict.
Consultation Process AN: The Indonesian government has said they will
not accept a referendum in East Timor. Without a referendum is there any
way to determine the will of the people of East Timor? Is there any way to
make a decision?
XG: We are trying to find a mechanism which [is both] democratic and
representative... because if the choice is not democratic, it will not
satisfy everybody and we are trying to seek the best mechanism.
AN: What kind of mechanism?
XG: Elections to choose a representatives to a consultative assembly.
The consultative assembly will decide if the East Timor people accept or
reject the proposal of autonomy.
The Militias AN: You have been meeting with various generals from the
Indonesia armed forces. Have you discussed with them why they are creating
and arming militias in East Timor?
XG: We have many arguments, but we already seen that there are some
sections of ABRI who don't accept psychologically ... losing East Timor
war. I mean the veterans of war and maybe they are ....the Kopassus
faction, military service intelligence service faction.
U.S. Military Training AN: The Kopassus was for many years trained by
the American military in sniper tactics, psychological warfare, etc. What
impact did this support for the Indonesian army have on the conduct of the
Indonesian army in Timor and within Indonesia itself?
XG: I think that the impact was in preparing Indonesian soldiers to go
to East Timor to kill East Timorese people. I think the Kopassus is not a
combat army, but an intelligence service of ABRI. In the war, in the 20
years of occupation, the Kopassus were involved in capturing, torturing,
killing, jailing people. I think that the impact of this training by the
U.S. of military education, was really bad in East Timor.
AN: There are now proposals in the U.S. Congress to cut off, to end,
all weapons, ammunition and training to the Indonesian army, to stop
supplying them. Do you think this would be a good idea, to stop supplying
all weapons, all training, to ABRI?
XG: I think it is a good idea, but it is not enough. I think that as I
told you the military intelligence service is doing very bad things in
East Timor now. I would prefer that the US government could pressure the
Indonesian government to end the SGI presence in East Timor. Because if
Habibie has presented to the East Timorese two options, there is no more
basis or argument for the SGI to stay there. Although I am sure that if
SGI is brought out of East Timor, we East Timorese can work together, can
meet each other to prepare ourselves for this crucial period of the
consultation process.
The Presidency AG: Xanana Gusmao, do you plan to run for president of
an independent East Timor?
XG: [Laughing] Please Amy don't ask me that question. I am trying every
hour these weeks and months to think about how difficult this time is; how
great are the challenges we are facing. Please don't ask me about the
presidency because there are people being killed by the military. It is
not yet time to ask me this question, sorry.
Santa Cruz Massacre AN: Xanana, in November of 1991, in the days
leading to the procession of Nov 12, 1991, from the Moteal Church to the
Santa Cruz cemetery, the procession that was massacred by the Indonesian
army, what was your expectation? How did you think the Indonesian
government would respond to the procession to the cemetery? What did you
expect them to do?
XG: Frankly, I didn't expect so brutal reaction from ABRI. I thought
because East Timor was in the front pages of the world because of the
failed visit of the [Portugese] parliamentary delegation, I thought they
would restrain themselves. But after the massacre I was sad, but I was
not, but I accepted it was a consequence of our struggle. And unlike that
massacre, there were many, many others without being known, without being
investigated. And yes I was very, very surprised by the brutal reaction of
ABRI
AN: Why do you think the ABRI opened fire on the crowd that day?
XG: It is usual [for the] ABRI to think that the East Timorese can be
[intimidated by] the deaths and we would surrender. The ABRI generals
never thought about the conscience of the people.... And it is their
failure, they never considered our conscience, they never considered our
inner most way. They only thought that if they punished us, we would
automatically give up our ideals, our aims. I think that it is what
happened.
AN: Do you think the massacre, and what happened after, was a turning
point?
XG: I think so. I think so because before the massacre, we tried very
heavily to say to the world that many, many people were killed but nobody
-- not so many people -- believed us. And the image you took of the
massacre was proof and could be shown to the international community that
not only of that situation, but maybe the situations where it had happened
in East Timor [before].
U.S. Role AG: Do you think the US government owes East Timor
compensation for supporting the Indonesian army in its genocide against
the people of East Timor?
XG: What we are trying to say to the United States is please tell the
Indonesian government to stop the violence in East Timor and to withdraw
from East Timor the military intelligence service because we believe that
this is the third party who is playing an important role to disturb the
solution and to discredit the Indonesian government itself.
AN: During the Indonesian occupation of East Timor, 200,000 people,
one-third of the original population has been killed, what effect has it
had on the society of East Timor?
XG: The very important impact is that the military occupation has
united East Timorese, has consolidated the nationalist feeling, and a
stronger patriotism.
AG: You have been listening to Xanana Gusmao, the rebel leader of East
Timor, speaking to us from house arrest in Jakarta, the capital of
Indonesia.
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