Subject: PUB: "We will accept a 51 percent
victory"
Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 11:47:29 -0400
From: Comissão para os Direitos do Povo Maubere <cdpm@esoterica.pt>Source :
Publico Date : 14 May 1999 Dateline : Jakarta Byline : Luciano Alvarez Original Language :
Portuguese Headline : "We will accept a 51 percent victory" An interview with
Herminio da Silva Costa
Herminio da Silva Costa has recently emerged as one of the pro-integration
movement’s most radical militants. According to a US reporter, da Silva Costa claimed
that the militia groups have been given a green light by the (Indonesian) military to kill
independence supporters. Although he denies having said this, in an interview with Publico
he claims not only to have created the militias but also to have the authority to issue
them with any kind of order.
Interview:
Publico (P): When did the Indonesian armed forces give the militias the go-ahead to
kill independence supporters in Dili? Da Silva Costa
(SC): I never said that. I know a US reporter wrote that in a magazine, but it is not
true.
P: Didn’t you talk to Allan Nairn, the author of the article in The Nation?
SC: On several occasions I talked to a reporter who said he was American, but I
don’t know if he was because he spoke Spanish. He asked me questions in Spanish and I
answered in Portuguese, so he must have misunderstood.
P: Well, what did you tell him? SC: I talked about the situation in East Timor, and how
we had to defend ourselves from Fretilin which, for the past 23 years, has been attacking
supporters of integration.
P: Nairn presents you as the principle leader of the 13 militias…
SC: That is not correct. The leader of the militias is Mr. Joao Tavares.
P: Then what is your position?
SC: I had always kept myself backstage. However, in August 1998, when we started
hearing about the possibility of the Indonesian army and police pulling out of Timor, some
others and I began organising militias to defend the people from Fretilin and the
Falintil.
P: So you were one of the founders of the militias? SC: Yes. P: What is your
relationship with the militias?
SC: Let’s say I have influence, and that I know almost all the commanders, and
that I can give orders.
P: What kind of orders?
SC: All types of orders.
P: Did you order the attack on Dili?
SC: No. That was a mistake that resulted from a misunderstanding.
P: What misunderstanding?
SC: On the Sunday, there was a problem in the market place. Some pro-independence
activists turned up there and attacked some of our members. As a result, a rumour spread
that Fretilin had taken over Dili. The commanders of some militias telephoned and asked me
whether they should attack. I said no, that it was just a rumour. The Liquica militia,
however, did not phone me, and came to Dili without my prior authorisation. We managed to
stop the first five trucks, but others entered Dili without instructions from us. They
made a mistake. That is why they are being disarmed.
P: The Liquica militia is being disarmed?
SC: Yes. As of 1400 hrs.
P: By whom?
SC: By us and by the army. They made a blunder and are being disarmed.
P: Militia commanders are always claiming that their men are being disarmed, but then
appear later on brandishing weapons…
SC: These (Liquica militia) are really being disarmed, because they bungled it. They
are going to hand over everything – machetes, rifles, everything. There is something
I want to explain: ever since the Accord was signed on 5 May by Portugal and Indonesia, we
have made a point of adhering it. That is why the Liquica militia is being disarmed. It
acted outside our command. They made a blunder, so they are disarmed. We are even willing
to send the police to arrest our militiamen if they take action without having orders from
us. Likewise, however, we insist that if Fretilin people make blunders they too be
arrested.
P: Alain Nairn said that you were responsible for the attack on Dili.
SC: That is a lie. I was in Jakarta. He misunderstood because he was talking in Spanish
and I in Portuguese. That must be the explanation.
P: But the militias attacked Liquica church on 6 April, killing about 50 people. There
is no doubt about that.
SC: The militias attacked Liquica church and killed two people who, the previous day,
had killed three of our men. We didn’t make a lot of noise about it because
that’s war. They attacked us, so they were attacked back. But, as far as I know, only
two people died.
P: But there are several witnesses, some of whom are independent, saying that over 50
people were killed in the attack.
SC: I am only aware of the killing of two members of Fretilin and three of ours.
P: The independence supporters, ordinary citizens, and even several independent sources
are saying that it is the militias who are attacking the civilian population.
SC: Let’s get one thing straight. For the past 23 years, Fretilin and the Falintil
have been attacking those who favour integration. How many have they killed? No one
mentions that. What’s happening now is that Fretilin are ordering people to
collaborate with their own men in carrying out attacks on pro-integration targets. We are
merely responding to those attacks. Then they say there have been massacres, when all the
time it is they who start the trouble. But now, they have fallen into our trap.
P: What trap is that?
SC: They thought that independence was in the bag and all sewn up. They left the
forests and came down to Dili and Baucau. Now they’re inside these two pockets we
have set up in Dili and Baucau, and there’s no one left in the forest.
P: If there is no one left in the forests, how can they be attacking the militias?
SC: From the cells they have in these two cities, Fretilin orders the people to attack
us. Then comes the counter-attack. But they are under control.
P: The National Council of Timorese Resistance denies that the Falintil have disbanded.
They say they are waiting for Xanana’s orders to take action.
SC: Then let them come out.
P: Are you going to take part in the referendum campaign?
SC: We support peace and dialogue. We have appealed several times to Jose Gusmao
(Xanana Gusmao) for talks, because this can only be resolved through dialogue. There is
going to be a referendum. Some will win, some will lose, and there will never again be
peace.
P: Are you against it (the holding of a referendum) ?
SC: What are important here are the people, not the politicians. It is the people that
suffer. There are only half a dozen politicians and they are just looking out for their
own interests. That is why we are in favour of dialogue. The only way to end the war is
through dialogue, by reaching an agreement. Jose Gusmao has to talk to us. If an agreement
were reached, we would be prepared to accept a 51 percent victory. They could have the
other 49 percent.
P: What do you mean by that?
SC: We would give them almost half the seats in the future government.
P: You mean the government of a territory still under Indonesian sovereignty?
SC: Yes, of course.
P: What if the outcome of the referendum was independence?
SC: If there were a referendum, 90 percent would vote our way. Instead of winning 51
percent – in the case of reaching an agreement with Jose Gusmao, we would win by 90
percent.
P: Isn’t there a possibility that the people will reject autonomy?
SC: No. But if that were to happen, the process would last another 23 years, because
then there would have to be fresh elections and, perhaps, the war would continue. That is
why we are appealing to Jose Gusmao for dialogue. I would like to take this opportunity to
appeal to Portugal’s President and Prime Minister to talk to Jose Gusmao and tell him
to embark on dialogue with us. There has to be an agreement. That is the only way there
will be peace.
P: Why do you refer to Xanana as Jose Gusmao?
SC: Because he was baptised Jose Alexandre Gusmao. Xanana is his nom de guerre. It
would be like calling him Commander Gusmao. I am not going to address my enemy by his nom
de guerre.
P: What is your nom de guerre?
SC: Afoneno
P: And what does that mean?
SC: It has no direct Portuguese translation, but means something like "the man who
pulls down the sun", or "the man who is capable of moving or shaking the
sun". In other words, "the man who is capable of everything".
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